Conqueror Discussion
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13 posts in this topic

 

Conqueror is more of a boss than I realized at first.  At the moment, he's finding himself at the top of many tournaments and is great for team play.  This will be my heavy class.

Duskmare likes this

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I know 3 moves on conqueror and didn't make a fool of myself.  Did well in brawls, and wasn't too embarrassing in elims with a 0 gear score.

 

1)  Shield Charge into free light.  This was my only "aggressive" move.

2)  Free guard breaks when you block heavy attacks.  out of the guard break you can get a free light, but it's better to throw them into the wall and get a free side heavy.  Then shield charge them back into the wall for another free side heavy.  Rinse and repeat as stamina allows.  Be careful about not swinging into the wall on accident as this will drain your stam quickly.

3)  Charge your mace and release it in opposite direction after blocking an attack.  This does leave you open to guard breaks, however.

 

One cool thing I found is that I could dodge warden's charge, then use my shield bash out of the dodge and go on the offensive.  Your shield bash beats warden's charge every time, as this neutralizes the guard break that he uses when people dodge.

 

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For anyone having issues with conqueror, the shield bash can be punished hard. It is sort of becoming similar to the Warden 50/50 shoulder rush. I found this out today when dueling a Conq on my Nobushi. All he would do is shield bash light until low on stam and then run away and turtle until stamina recharged. I was having a really tough time with it. How I adjusted was that as soon as he dashed towards me, I would side dash. This becomes 50/50 because he might not shield bash and instead finish his dash with a GB which would get me mid dash. However, if he shield bashed, I would dodge it and get my own GB.

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Pay Attention to Guard Position of Opponent on GB and Shield Bash

Conqueror can now get side heavy off GB. It has a small caveat though: if they have a guard position before the GB, it will block your heavy if you attack that same position. So you need to pay attention to where your opponents guard is when you GB to make sure you attack a different side. On the receiving end, when a heavy is blocked by a conq, move your guard to the side so you have a chance to block.

 

These rules also apply to shield bash light. Pay attention to their guard so you aren't attacking a guarded position.

 

Conq Has 'Safe' Parries

The idea behind this is that rather than press heavy to parry, you instead hold heavy, this way if your timing is off, you will still block and start charging your heavy instead. The only time this can get you in trouble is if they feint in to GB. Since conq can't CGB while charging you'll need to cancel any missed parries to protected against a feint in to GB.

 

When Not to Parry

So Rider in the OP mentioned that any heavy you have blocked you can get a GB from because of Superior Block. Something to keep in mind is that this is often a better option than parrying. This is true any time a parry would put your opponent outside of GB range, such as Nobushi. So instead of parrying Nobushi heavies, just block them and get your GB since they don't get knocked away.

 

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There are 4 different shield bashes:

All Guard Shield Bash - Free Side Heavy

Running Shield Bash - Free Side Heavy

Dodging Shield Bash - Free Light

Heavy Bash (Bash after Heavy) - Free Light

 

Note the all guard shield bash gives a free side heavy. This is important because it's part of your feinting game: i.e. attack, all guard feint, shield bash, get your free heavy.

 

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Superior Block on Start Up of Heavies - Counter Attacking

First thing you have to understand is what superior block does. For both heavy and light attacks, it stops chains. But it also has a special effect on heavy attacks because it increases recovery time. This is why the conqueror gets a guaranteed GB on heavy blocks and not light blocks. This helps clarify what seems like inconsistent behavior when trying to counter attack with your heavy superior block start ups. Sometimes your enemy can block your attack, sometimes they can't. That inconsistency is caused by two things: what type of attack you are countering (heavy vs light) and what its recovery time is. For instance, countering Valkyrie lights is not guaranteed because superior block on lights does not increase her recovery time. However, if she does a dashing light for instance, the counter will be safe since we know that when these are blocked they incur long recovery times in general. Superior block in that instance is doing nothing to increase recovery time. If you did full block which doesn't have superior block properties, you could simply guard break and side heavy anyway. So the rule of thumb is that countering heavies is almost always guaranteed because superior block will create a recovery window for you where they cannot block or counter GB, while countering lights is guaranteed only if the attack has long recovery times on its own.

 

So now that you understand why the superior block start up on heavies works the way it does, you've probably already come to the following conclusion: what's the point of this? You could simply just block and wait for heavies, then swing after the block (you don't even need to guard break first) rather than trying to intercept an attack with your heavy start up which would open you up to parry fishing (feints). Sure you could use full block and sacrifice your stamina to stop your attack, but the benefits aren't outweighing the cons here. There might be an argument for using this when getting ganged up on by a group since your window for attacking becomes much smaller.

 

Charging Your Heavy During Your Opponents Attack

Charged heavies are hard to use since

  1. they leave you vulnerable to GB 
  2. people tend to turtle as soon as they see you spinning your flail
  3. they are pretty easy to parry

However, you can combine them with superior block to punish heavies. If your opponent is throwing out a heavy, you can immediately hold your heavy attack button to begin charging. If they feint, immediately cancel so you can counter any GB attempts. Since you started charging the heavy early, when you block their heavy, instead of GB, release your lv1 or lv2 charged heavy for extra damage.

Booyah likes this

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Using the charged heavy as a reactive counter is good in theory but in practice the timing is extremely difficult. You'd have to be very fast to begin charging as you see your opponent starting their attack and then you'd still have to match their guard. You'd have to be even faster to cancel in time for a feint, especially if they faint directly into a guardbreak from a heavy like the centurion. It's always far safer to block then guardbreak a heavy, or dodge and shield bash for the light. That way if they cancel into guardbreak you can counter it with a guardbreak interrupt or you'll already be halfway into your shield bash and they can't guardbreak you out of it. 

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The timing isn't difficult actually. It really doesn't take that long to get a lv1 charge and superior block gives you a really big window to get it out. Matching their guard doesn't seem like a good argument against charging the heavy. If you want to block it all (which you would either way) you will have to match guard and in this case you are just holding heavy around the same time you change your guard. I will have to agree with you on the timing for canceling the charge and counter guard breaking though, especially on a traditional controller where the face buttons and joystick use the same finger. If you are against a feint happy fellow (Zerker anyone?), you'll probably want to stick to just blocking (which I would advise in general for any class in that situation). Also, Centurion and PK are the only classes with a soft feint GB so I wouldn't recommend this strategy against them since you won't get a feint before the GB. For any opponent, you should be paying attention to what does and does not work against them. If this doesn't work on your opponent, stop using it. If it doesn't work on anyone, forget it even existed. But for those it does work on, it can squeeze out some extra damage in exchange for more risk. I guess you have to ask yourself if the 10 extra damage is worth it (or 20 for lv2 charge, assuming that's even possible).

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I played earlier and tried out charging a heavy as a reactive block counter. It kinda worked. I got a couple of hits off but I usually left it a little late. I'll practice a bit more but, you're right, it's possible. :)

Yeah, I agree. The cent and PK are the main ones to watch out for but other characters with feints can always use B (or circle or the equivalent keyboard binding) then guardbreak and it'll still be pretty fast. I haven't really tested it enough to say if it's too fast or not but it would be pretty hard to react to either way. :)
Are you sure it gives that much of a boost? Haha. It always felt like the Lv1 charge only gave about 3-5 extra damage. :P 

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So I have conflicting data on this. In the past Conqs had issues finishing people because their side heavy did 23 damage but a bar was 25. So the guy could just run until his final bar came back. I honestly think this has been fixed, i.e. the side heavy does 25 now. I haven't had problems with it, but I usually play with gear on which was the fix in the past. I could swear I've done duels and had no problem finishing people.

 

As for the damage boost. Lv1 has been said to do 33 and Lv2 45. The 33 seems to align with 10 damaged added to 23, which was the old damage number. But 45 sticks out to me cause it would fit with base damage being 25 and each level adding 10 damage. Note that 10 damage is slightly less than half a bar, so that might be why it doesn't feel like much. But 20 is a good chunk, I just don't think it'll be easy to get a lv2 hit on anyone who is seasoned.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/6y3inn/conq_free_heavy_on_forward_light_bash/

 

it actually works...do a forward SB and just do a side heavy where their guard isn't (unless assassin) right before it connects (aka as they said use the input buffer). This is a gem.

 

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Fastest feints in the game now (but with a big stam hit):

 

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